For some of us, the doctrine came along at a time we had kindness from cruelty, and so on. This clarification is very helpful. Since I hardly want to finish this round, I definitely don't want to do "multiple mortal probations." Wow. Some say that they dont believe in do overs. Thank you, Gregory! I refer to it as the doctrine of eternal lives which includes the idea of Multiple Mortal Probations. May the Lord bless you! Amazing, some of the stuff they came up with. The apparent supremacy in Daniel of the Ancient of Days to the "one like unto the Son of Man," who JS interpreted as Christ, makes Brigham's Adam-God doctrine even more understandable. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place [the telestial kingdom where they now live], to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.". A blog from a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The only doctrine that Julie specifically mentions her stake president having a problem with is "multiple probations," also called multiple mortal probations. What I was looking forward to about eternity was the end of suffering. Many people, including my children, were hurt in the process, all because I was leaning on his spiritual gifts that turned out to be clouded with false doctrine. Thank you so very much for your great insight and belief in God and the scriptures!! Why the title and what needs to happen to have that title. The views expressed herein belong to the authors only and do not represent official doctrine for any church. I believe even to the point that if I see an extra dark effort to oppose something then it must be very significant. speaking, writing, arithmetic, or who have spiritual gifts such as being Greg has perfectly captured my thoughts and feelings as well. If this were false, then why do I want to strive to be a better disciple of Jesus Christ? Required fields are marked *. About this group Our Purpose: As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we want to prepare ourselves for the day of Christ's return. Thank you Ericfor putting what I know to be true into words. This implications started with JS' apparent teaching that God the Father was a Christ during his mortal probation. As it is now, one could easily conclude God respects persons, because some of us clearly get benefits others never had. millions of people from around the world are part of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . The purpose was not to claim that it is the doctrine of the Church, as we have no authority in that regard. I can testify if one puts their effort into their relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus first, (who are one God) And accept the Saviors Atonement by putting the effort into repenting and forgiving. It "feels" more true to me than most of Christianity's "one and done" model. It is uplifting to the soul and brings me closer to Christ. I do not believe I am alone in these sentiments. Or a more default reading that doesn't inject as much into the text is simply those who live in a telestial way get rewarded with the same. Heber C. Kimball then did the same to Brigham Young, i.e., ordained him to The Godhead. This implication is emphasized by JS' teachings on identifying angels vs. evil spirits (found in D&C), which he taught on multiple occasions, maybe 5 or 6 times, before and after the Nauvoo endowment had been administered. With those multiple witnesses I could no longer question or deny what the Savior hadtold me. He, Only He. 2:21. wasteth the days of his probation, 2 Ne. This thesis explains a bunch of odd data points and suggests a straightforward explanation for the origin of Adam-God. A woman who has been identified before as Lori Daybell's "best friend" has written a lengthy 7-page letter describing the various forms of "deception" emanating from alleged "doomsday cult" leader Chad Daybell.. East Idaho News reporting on the Melanie Gibb's letter (read in full here) comes in the aftermath of 51-year-old Chad Daybell's arrest on two felony counts for . Mahalo. He claimed, like so many others to have had an out-of-body experience. When I was introduced to this topic of multiple mortal probations several years ago it just made sense. The seriousness, the risk, and the glories of mortal life are undercut the moment one supposes he will have a million or more subsequent probations of the same sort. One must review and agree to the rules of the group, established due to a few that join just to create contention and kick against the pricks. It suggests that we find ourselves in endless cycles of creation, living and dying over and over, learning and progressing, ascending the ladder step-by-step until we eventually "get it right." So for example Quinn's claim that the three degrees of glory arises from the three levels (places) of emanation in Plotinus that was in the culture around Joseph requires that Joseph interpret this in very non-Platonic ways. February 28, 2017 in General Discussions. Because I do just that I have grown closer to the Savior and because I study scripture, I have more enlightenment and understanding of truth. I enjoyed your book very much and reading your essay just now is when I felt enveloped in the calmest, loving peace, and knowing that bore witness that this additional knowledge is indeed true. So, I'll just comment that thepoints you bring up nicely illustrate some of the basictension that this theology introduces. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. As I have sought to understand my past before this life, and While belief in this doctrine is unpopular in the Christian world at this time, I would like to share some of the ways it has been a blessing to me. Thank you Kim. Im grateful you shared your experience here! As for me, I will do my best to honor the rules of these forums. like my sweet wife. 2. It also appears to be welcomed and seriously considered among others of I did not need to ask our Lord and Savior if what I heard was true, just as Joseph Smith seen God the Father and Jesus Christ and Could not deniy it, I stand as a witness of the same thruths declared. I no longer depended on him to get us there. 9. I have learned for His response changed my eternal perspective forever when the voice of the Lord spoke to me and said I Am not in the business of destroying my children, nor are they ever lost to me for they are mine. Then I saw a scripture pop into my mind which, when I read, took on a whole new meaning and suddenly restored the hope to me that the words the Lord gave to me were not only true, they are openly witnessed in our own scriptures. This LDS doctrine of celestial kingdoms relies heavily on the Bible passage in John 14:2, "In my Father's house there are many mansions," as proof that these kingdoms exist in heaven. At one point I had to stop believing any thing he said to me of a spiritual nature and this set me on my path to get my own inspiration of the true doctrine. Well what did the Father do? This thesis explains a bunch of odd data points and suggests a straightforward explanation for the origin of Adam-God. we are talking about multiple mortal probations that are all human.] Im sealed to my husband. What happened was that I would hear a name in my mind and immediately a person on the other side of the girl would introduce themselves and then they would thank me for helping them in their trialed, this was not for 1 probationary earth but many. It challenged some of their traditional Christian beliefs. God bless you, brother! Considering the modern Mormon understanding of the titles Jehovah and Elohim didn't develop until long after Brigham Young, it is understandable that he could have developed his own interpretation of Micheal, Jehovah and Elohim. Benjamin Seeker It has been referred to many times in this essay and the comments as doctrine. Strang, a convert of only four months at the time of Smith's martyrdom, produced a letter he claimed was sent by the prophet naming . Others feel if it were One of the most effective teaching tools for me comes Apostle Lorenzo Snow said that "his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith, was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband." I just dont see how being promised we can be together forever, and being reborn in another life, and probably sealed to someone else fit together. They in turn did it by proxy for Joseph and Hyrum Smith. And like those, here, before me have mentioned, this doctrine has brought more clarity, understanding of why I went through my own experiences in this probation. the past has fueled our desire to serve God more diligently, and to fight For others, it has given meaning and A blog from a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. over the airways and fiber lines of our media sources. Greg pointed out another of these natural and likely divine reminders and shadows to me, in the daily rising and setting of the sun. Another George Laub journal entry on JS' Sermon In the Grove seems to confirm that this is how Laub understood it. We have multiple opportunities for learning and growth, and it provides a way for those who play a contrasting role for our learning to not be lost if they chose to turn back to the light. Harold, your thoughts and perspective are priceless. And now I know that the lower I choose to descend, the more opportunity I will have to ascend higher. Officially, Mormons are supposed to be almost entirely vegetarian. I know many people think this is false doctrine and I did put myself in their shoes to understand where they were coming fromI could see what they were trying to say, but the fruits werent lining up. I am a very simple man, not elequent in speech, but my witness of the Truth if it is very strong and it is deep and brings much peace to my heart. You must understand that this is a very poor argument. Even though we were sealed in the temple, it is only upon the condition of righteousness of the individual that the sealing will be valid. (I havent read everything what was posted about that themeso I am sorry if I repeat things that you already mentioned.). One of the questions that has bothered me since I was very young is: How did it all start? Thank you for sharing your witness Cheryl! grudge against anyone who does not believe, or who does not want to know more Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Pamee, you have a wonderful heart and testimony. I like you, have had a sure witness even as I am writting this that it is true. are so advanced in their abilities and gifts from birth, such as music, art, And it speaks that our destination after this life, even if we come up short of the Glory of God could not possibly be our final destination for eternity. true, it should only come through certain lines of authority. Like another point of view on the same thing. I realized it was up to me to ask, seek, knock, learn and apply with or without him. as insights and spiritual impressions have come, I have not wanted to share the Until I meet you. I dont necessarily have all the answers there. They also vicariously ordained Joseph and Hyrum to do the same. Likewise those who want Kabbalistic influence on Joseph (which I personally find pretty dubious - we don't know the extent of Neibaur's actual knowledge of Kabbalah or Kabbalistic texts) simultaneously require a misreading of these texts. . If they are returned then effectively this reading is denying they are resurrected at all. However this is no profound than all cows participating in the form of cowness for Platonists. That seems a bit of a stretch. I do not condemn those who feel this way. Kalai, mahalo for visiting and sharing your views. Some are asking why this doctrine is necessary. Yet they lived on the earth at the beginning when it was nearly still a paradise, and they lived to almost 1000 years before dying. http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/shirley-maclaine-tells-film-set-stories-line-article-1.2545803. I love that you point our how the Ninth Article of Faith apples to all who earnestly and humbly seek the truth, and not for just a select few. One lifetime and you are done feels like temporary progression. Even when I was small, I felt that some spirits come to be tested and other (superior) spirits come to test! brazzers danny d. cursive worksheets for kindergarten. Kevin, I know that feeling! Some awesome people have been excommunicated. I am eternally grateful for all of the doctrines that you and Julie and others you work with have been brave enough to bring forward to those of us who were so very ready to embrace higher truths through the spirit..Lucifer continues to whisper to me that I am a nobody, and why out of all the people on the earth would I be privileged to have knowledge that only a few believe and have currently? I experienced a baptism of fire when I was only 14 years old and it has sustained me my entire life. There is a real fear of being labeled an apostate for believing these messages and for even having had my own experiences. I do so realizing it could be the very thing that causes estrangement from my family, friends, and my church. For behold, I Nor do I believe that a full understanding of Who I Am, in all the Eternal facets of my Being, qualifies me to take responsibility for doing Fathers work in somehow translating this knowledge to another. specifics with others. Eric, It lasted several weeks. Libraries. Apparently, Laub wasn't the only who understood the King Follett Sermon this way. Ive had them too, and feel Ive received answers to them. Denver Carlos Snuffer Jr. is a Utah lawyer, an author of Restorationist devotional books, a lecturer, a speculative theologian, and claims to be a "revelator to fellowships of the remnants movement," a spiritual movement in schism with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). LDS sharing their beliefs about what the mysteries is hardly a breaking of the rules. You are obviously gifted and inspired by God. How can something start from nothing? Now of course the argument of various forms of platonism in early Mormonism typically comes with it the claim that Joseph ismisreading platonism. Even if I lived to be 100 years old I am quite certain I will not know everything God knows. Third, there were a lot of other early LDS, some apostles as well who lived closer in time and proximity to Joseph Smith who believed in "multiple mortal probations." Even more than that I feel that spirit of truth in my heart that it is true. path, and between my Father in Heaven and me. Some people have said that the church teaches this doctrine and that it is called Eternal Lives (plural). I also believe that they want the best of everything for me and that I can become like them. felt very final[i]. It is a fairly new idea to me but seems entirely plausible. That's the gist of it. Laub wrote, "For we are to go from glory to glory and as one is raised to a higher, so the next under him may take his degree and so to take the exaltation through the regular channel. But, I know this is absolutely trueAnd thank the Stalwart!! Thomas asks if Zulema, Melanie Gibb, Lori were "very active" in the LDS Church. Thank you for raising this important point Diane. I am not sure how most people have become exposed to this doctrine. We have had two grandsons and a nephew commit suicide in their teens. Thanks for your kind thoughts Traci, and for your believing heart. The The thought of using this This group gives us a safe platform in which we discuss the trials, tribulations, prophecies and signs of the last dispensation of which we live in. Im glad you feel that way Kendall. I truly appreciate your time and great efforts in doctrinal essays and your wonderful books. I couldnt agree more with what youve said about the saviors role the doctrine doesnt diminish Him, it emphasizes Him and deepens my reverence for all He risked losing by condescending. And as this literally happens, every morning is a shadow of what will be in the long term of eternity. Like Lehi who partook of the fruit of the tree of life and who immediately wanted to share it with his family, the fruits of the doctrine have been delicious to me, and I have also wanted to share it. I will give up on this life and try again in the next life. Let's review multiple scriptures that allow us to see things as they really are: 1) The Plan of Happiness. ", More significantly, JS' King Follett Sermon suggests that, after the resurrection, each heir to Godhood will eventually serve as a Christ in a mortal probation. They went to the temple quite often and met up with each other there. I see and feel Gods mercy and love for his children in the doctrine. The Church Has a Bunker-Like Network of Tunnels. And it is all possible only in and through the merits of our Savior, the Son. So beautiful and strong words that I saw citated by you and Greg this dynamic of dying and be born again. through contrasts. That is they aren't to be taken mystically or platonically but in a materialist/historicist kind of 'literalism.' It taught me that accepting such information and experiences with out, knowing for my self (James 1:5) was and is a danger zone for me to be in. It reminds me again of Gods ever extended arm of mercy. How have most LDS people come to learn of the concept of multiple probations? To me it not only set me free trying to tug and pull and push my husband in the gospel but it set him free as well. This doctrine also brings peace to my soul and increases my love and respect for our Heavenly Father and Mother and our Savior, Jesus Christ. These ware resurrected Bodies, Violated the Celestial laws. on several counts: Also, I defer to board rules and won't discuss the specifics of the endowment, but there is a very strong implication in there that, at the very least, resurrected beings can shed their resurrected forms somehow and experience another mortal probation. Both Brigham and Heber were indoctrinated in the principles and I suspect others, particularly W.W. Phelps. As with Moses, the stark contrast in dark and light leaves no It was like having a deep spiritual sigh while being purged of a host of simplistic, faulty, misleading, worrisome beliefs I had never recognized were dragging me down. I love you all and am thankful for the puzzle piece of truth each of you has to offer in my journey. There are many quotes of early LDS Church leaders who claimed the Prophet Joseph secretly taught a doctrine of multiple mortal probations. about the doctrine, but it is important to me. That one would be tempted to say this life is just too hard. Question. I will ponder about it and ask Heavenly Father. Some may ask why I or anyone else have been privileged to learn of these doctrines while others have not. I can seeJoseph Smith easily deriving reincarnation from several passages in the New Testament. The more I hear the more I learn from you and Julie!!! Jenimarie, I love your experience and witness. (And there are multiple forms - the form of being human, the form of being Jewish, the form of being a prophet, etc. Oh, and another thing, so many on this board have mentioned how attaining Godhood is much better than living as angels and playing harpsin the clouds doing nothing. It is grasped in a such a powerful symbol the baptism. I still struggle to understand my place in the eternitys. But I can understand a model where the soul continues to return to learn new things and progress. In this world of learning I can progress to 6th grade, and then continue on through junior high and high school and graduate. The more I know the more I am constrained to announce The Glory of God and my own unworthiness before He Who Is Mighty To Save. My friend Julie and I have discussed this doctrine openly on podcasts, and I have written about it on my personal blog. I view these gifts largely to be the result of mortal I welcome it! : And one lifetime is more than enough, if that lifetime lasts for eternity! In his writings in Sein und Zeit (I only know the German title) he describes that our understanding of things as an increase of awareness the process is in his view not linear but circularhe calls that process the hermeneutic circle of understandingor as Gadamer would call it a hermeneutic spiral. Im glad to see youre getting your own comfort and witness of the doctrine! I love Them with all my heart and desire to serve them forever. This can be meant spiritually or physically this two sides mirror each other. We will be free to choose to be with those we love, who also want to be with us. Something didnt feel complete and this connects so many pieces in my life, in my culture, and even in our Hawaiian legends of gods and goddesses. 6 No Eating Meat in the Summer. Unfortunately, the divine version of the doctrine has not, and may not soon receive the proper attention and audience it deserves. I'm very pleased and honored to have this opportunity to meet and worship with you on this special occasion. Item #6a. Great topic. Thank you Eric. On a side note, I tried to present and explain it to my husband and the first thing he said was if it is true, then why would we even need a Savior? I'm not convinced that we know the basis for this train of thought (which of course not all the brethren agreed with) However it's certainly very plausible that it's from these events that Brigham developed his theology - possibly due to ambiguity in the original events. 2:43 p.m. John Thomas is conducting cross . The Mormon belief that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three separate people who are one in their mission to bring about the salvation of all mankind. Men and Women who Valiantly bring this (Exalting Knowledge) to those who wish to ascend. The sources are quoted from boap.org and the MF0081 "Multiple Mortal Probations: LDS Related Quotes" document found at mormonpolygamydocuments.org. Also, I didn't mention it in the OP, but I believe Michael Quinn documents an influential relationship between JS and Alexander Neibaur, who was a convert from Jewish Cabala and who related reincarnation-like Cabala sourced ideas in a couple of Times and Seasons articles during the Nauvoo era. It takes a while to ponder these things and receive witness, but it does come; then you see thru Heavens lens, and see the beauty of a more complete and merciful Plan of Redemption and Salvation. Blessings to all seekers.
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